Friday, November 2, 2012

We will expel those we cannot convince

One minute of video that says a lot about the separatist mindset.





Link


Note: "Give them the key" reminds me of the expulsion of the Moors and the Jews from Spain that started in 1492. After more than 500 years, some of their descendants still keep the keys of the homes of their forefathers.

69 comments:

  1. I wonder if the rise of a totalitarian hate-filled clown as an ideologue can only be the product of a sick society.

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    1. Er... yes. Evidently.

      Mr Albà is one influential person in Catalonia. He is very dear to separatists, even though -or especially because- he's a clown on public TV.

      On the more serious side there's the racist politician Heribert Barrera, who has just been awarded, posthumously, highest honours in Barcelona and will get a street named after him.

      Only a few years ago this gentleman talked about the genetic composition of Catalonia, made the interesting point that the IQ of African-Americans is inferior to that of Whites, and argued that the mentally handicapped should be sterilised.

      Take all this together and you do get a sick society, i.e. a society that is increasingly buying into an extremist ideology.

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  2. Hay un dicho Español que lo resume todo: Si tu me dices de lo que presumes.... yo te dire de lo que careces.
    These Catalanists have their mouth so full of freedom and Democracy, that they are starting to smell bad.

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    1. That's another interesting point. How long will a well-meaning international community, so fond of supporting the struggles for liberation of small peoples, take to see behind the façade?

      Catalonia is a case that constantly questions concepts that have been dear to us since the 60s.

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    2. Just love that saying! -if you tell me what you boast of, I'll tell you what you lack -.
      Common old garden wisdom...and spot on here!
      What about this one - give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves -?
      I suspect that Rajoy might be doing the only thing possible at this stage (i.e. that doesn't play to their script).Letting them do their worst. I see them rather like flies in a bottle. (or farts, as you noted)

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    3. Now here's another one:
      you can fool some of the people some of the time, you can also fool some of the people all of the time, but you surely can't fool all of the people all of the time.
      I think in Catalonia we are getting to the third point, at this time the catalan politicians have some of the people fooled all of the time, and they think their shit is so hot, that they are willing to try to fool everybody forever.

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    4. AZ, I don't agree with what Rajoy does. At the very least he could do more to shut up the radicals on his own side.

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    5. Which radicals? The reserve army officers?
      What surprises me is how much, how deafening the SILENCE is and has been from Madrid !
      Decades of insults and wrongful accusations from Cat. have met with a complicit silence from Madrid. So now it's escalating...(of course) and instead of fighting fire with fire - SO easy to do given the level of hysteria and abuse here - I find the Government in Madrid surprisingly contained.
      As a person with an interest in justice and truth I would like to see the Cat. Generalitat confronted in their lies, their poverty of spirit unmasked. A good slap.
      So I would make a terrible politician...but I'm prepared to admit that the passivity of the central Government, at this stage, may be a much wiser way to go. We'll see.
      (or perhaps you were talking about Wert's little moment of truth? Frankly, I think that anyone who thinks that what he said was "bad" - because if you read all that he said, i.e. about BOTH identities, he certainly wasn't wrong - is buying in to the nationalist diatribe.
      Wert spoke of teaching the kids respect for both Cat. AND Spain.
      The cat. nationalists, only Catalunya. And to do that they have demonized Spain. When they throw their hands in the air to denounce Wert it is hypocrisy.
      To agree with them you would have to accept their premises. That Catalunya is not Spain. That more than half the Catalan population do not speak Spanish as a mother tongue. etc. )
      But maybe I have missed pronouncements from other radicals?

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    6. The retired officers, the press, those officials who have threatened to keep Catalonia out of the EU....

      That's not a democratic discourse, it does not offer a positive alternative and it gives arguments to the Catalan radicals. Rajoy should show more leadership. He has started more recently by offering dialogue, and I think he must continue on that track.

      This does not exclude his criticism of Catalan nationalism. Where it is correct he should continue that too. But it's both things that are needed.

      I do not refer to Wert. He has clearly stated what he meant and I see nothing wrong with it except the unfortunate choice of the word "hispanicise".

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    7. Sorry to insist, but i do think it important that we have a true measure of things here. I'm aware it's contrary to perceived good-thinking (fault on both sides is more conducive to dialogue, even if it's not true. And dialogue is the only civil course of action, even though this has shown itself to be untrue with rule breakers, both individual and collective, who consistently escalate when they see there are no consequences for their actions) ) but let's put the blame where the blame is due, because sometimes the fault IS on one side, and it seems patently obvious now that we won't be able to stop this downward spiral by continuing to buy into the nationalist argument. Been there, done that, and it didn't work.
      In what way does Rajoy have control over retired officers, the press....?? I wasn't aware that anyone in the Government had threatened to keep Cat. out of the EU?
      I think he should have shown more leadership too, though not in the same way as you do I suspect. When he first came into office,and was without the need of CiU, he could have started exposing their lies, he could have enforced the laws they have so blithely broken. But he didn't.
      What exactly do you think he can offer Mas in a "dialogue"? (by dialogue, we understand bargaining session, compromise)
      More money? Mas has already said he's no longer interested.
      More power? They already have more power than anywhere else. The only piece they're missing is Justice. If Rajoy gives them this I think they would be happy for a good while because they would be immune, at last!, from the troubling nuisance of legal constraint.
      The right to call referendums? Rajoy has already indicated to Mas the procedure for this. Mas was not interested in the procedure.
      Seriously, do you imagine that Mas is remotely interested in "dialogue" ? Why would he be when his strategy has proved so successful so far? Rajoy must offer dialogue, to keep up appearances, but we all know it would be deaf/mute. The only thing he can offer Mas now is Justice. Check mate.

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  3. Les paraules del Toni Albà en aquest fragment fan por, però m'agradaria poder veure el vídeo sencer abans de jutjar. Podries donar l'enllaç al vídeo complet?

    Toni Albà's words in this clip are scary, but I'd like to watch the full video before judginb because context is important. Could you give me the URL?

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    1. That's in the video's description at Youtube.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu9VJH5iKcY

      I obviously shortened the original, but I did not tweak his words. I just brought some parts closer together -leaving the chronological order intact- so that the contradictions between them become more evident.

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  4. Thanks for the reply.

    What Albà says is avariation on the "Love it or leave it" slogan used by some conservatives in the US back in the 70s.

    I don't know Albà personally, but something tells me that he belongs to that group of people who think that everybody who is not an independentist hates Catalonia.

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    1. See, it doesn't matter who loves Catalonia. It doesn't matter if citizens love their country. It doesn't matter if they hate it.

      They have rights, just like anybody else. If their rights would depend on their love for their country we'd be thrown back to 30s Germany. It's that serious.

      This is exactly why Catalan separatism is the antithesis of everything any democracy stands for. It is the antithesis of the EU, which these same separatists want to join.

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    2. Never a truer word said.

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  5. Those who have followed the links to the original video will have seen that it starts out with a map. In red is not Catalonia, but the Catalan Lands.

    That's all the territories which one day should form the "New State of Europe". More here:

    http://cataloniawatch.blogspot.com.es/2012/06/undemocratic-beyond-any-reasonable.html

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  6. Where is the part where he says "We will expel those we cannot convince"????
    It's not in the video...

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    1. Please note that this is the title. A title introduces the general idea. Hence, this title is correct.

      It does not use quotation marks, because it is not a quote.

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  7. If it's not meant as a quote, who is the we in the title? If it's not a quote the "we" is the publisher, i.e. you... makes no sense then at all.
    I don't like what he says here either, but you are distorting his words to make them worse and support your purpose. Also Toni Alba is an actor, he is not a politician, and this is not representative of what most Catalans or separatists think. And if you mean that it is, provide some more examples.

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    1. Not my fault if they didn't teach you how to read the press.

      That Toni Albà is a respected voice is shown already by the original interview to which I have linked. It was part of a series of interviews by the same author on the same issue, starring, among others, writers Matthew Tree and Jordi Llavina, journalist Patricia Gabancho and actress/singer Núria Feliu.

      Toni Albà is not a politician, nor have said I that he is. All of them are opinion makers in Catalonia, talking heads who defend separatism. They are well respected here. This is not new to you, for which I suspect you are now trying to feed us specious arguments.

      Nobody on the oh-so-democratic separatist side has so far criticised Albà for his words.

      I do not distort Albà's words. I translate them. "Agafin i marxin" means exactly what the subs say: "pack their stuff and get out of here". You can also say "pack their stuff and leave", but I doubt this makes his words any more comforting.

      If all of this (rightfully) hurts you too much, I suggest you rethink your political position.

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    2. I wouldn't go that far. All ideologies have radical followers but I personally know quite a number of independentists who are fairly moderate in their political views: they prefer an independent Catalonia but they do not try to indoctrinate you nor are opposed to Spanish becoming an official language in Catalonia, for instance. It is true that radical independentists are noisier these days, but let's not generalize.

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    3. I agree, but I think this is not the problem. The problem is not the generally moderate majority, but the extremist minority that, if allowed to act, radicalises it. This is the phase we are in right now.

      With Toni Albà we have an opinion leader who is widely respected until today. Let's see his case in the wider context. Heribert Barrera, even though there was a public debate about his racist remarks, is still chosen as an exemplary Catalan. Ferran Requejo, a university professor and another well-respected opinion leader, could speak of the PSC as in the risk of becoming a "cancer" for Catalonia.

      If people are not ostracised for such ideas, the wrong message is sent.

      Add to this the disrespect for the rule of law in the highest ranks of Catalan politics. Including the insistence on Catalan-only education, which on the radical side has led to quite some hate-speech against those parents who had started the most recent debate, for their desire to have their children educated also, not exclusively, in Spanish.

      What happens if a referendum on independence gives a majority against it? Will there be some, or many, looking for culprits literally at their neighbour's door?

      How will the situation be before a referendum? We already have many politicians pressing their citizens to conform to a certain ideology. As I say here:

      http://cataloniawatch.blogspot.com.es/2012/10/losing-democracy.html

      Millions of our tax money are spend not only on a public TV that shows a clear ideological bias, but on private media that further the same ideology. Little do this media do to denounce the excesses of this ideology.

      Nationalist mainstream already uses very dubious methods. And it gives a free pass to its more radical expressions. Seriously, for me personally this is almost as if the Front Nationale had taken over France.

      Do you remember the reaction in the whole of Europe when Haider joined the Austrian government in 2000?

      All I have said is simply consensus in the EU, and you may take the reactions to Vidal-Quadras as a confirmation. Once the EU takes a closer look at what is actually happening inside Catalonia, it will apply the same standards.

      Presently, Catalan culture is understood as a minority to be protected, and little is known about Catalan politics. I, living in Catalonia, have already moved a step beyond that. Do not doubt that others will follow once the focus moves from the state to what might become a new state.

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  8. It doesn't surprise me at all. You can see this very often through the cracks of the arguments of nationalists, but seldom as clearly as here. They always try to keep a politically correct veneer, so that they can keep what they think is their moral high ground.

    Nice to see they are finally showing publicly their true face.

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  9. The guy's so incredibly stupid he accuses those "haters" who live in Catalonia of taking away Catalan money, which in theory is what the Madrid government does. He's got it all muddled up in that head of his.

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    1. It becomes so obvious that he not only generalises in a terrible way, but also that he extends his criticism of the Spanish government to his very own neighbours. What do you call it when people are made to suffer the consequences in their own flesh?

      This way of "muddling things up" has happened several times in history. And those who were to be expelled were always called haters to justify their expulsion.

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  10. One sided, as usual. These are the people who would be expelled: http://www.demotix.com/news/1518547/nazi-spaniard-groups-against-independence-catalonia#media-1518566

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    1. You just don't want to understand. Nobody can be expelled.

      You have just spoken as if you were a fascist yourself.

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    2. You never mention the extremists on the other side.

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    3. In this very thread I have a debate with AZ about the, as I say, radicals on the other side.

      But you're right, my focus is on Catalan nationalism. This very entry shows why it is necessary: not only on its fringes, but at its very centre, Catalan nationalism shows very dangerous traits.

      Nonetheless, if anybody wants write about "the extremists on the other side", be my guest to do so in detail.

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    4. You are writing on something which is trivial; the Spanish Falange is all too real, and the statements coming out of the lips of military and political leaders proves that fascism is alive and well in Spain. Considering the recent history of Spain, it makes your focus rather ridiculous, like handing out speeding tickets at the Grand Prix.

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    5. I am writing about it because such fascistoid ideas are trivial around here. That makes them so worrying.

      Proof is yourself: you could only come up with finger-pointing to the other side and minimising the problem in Catalonia. You have not distanced yourself from Albà.

      What will you do when the the thugs come and knock on your neighbour's door?

      (Oh, and please get a nick.)

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    6. Anonymous, I wonder if you would mind elaborating on the "statements...of military and political leaders" which prove to you that fascism is alive and well - in Spain.?
      It would be very interesting to be able to see exactly what this is about and prove - or not - that it's not just a manipulative rumour....(of the "y tu mas" type)
      Meanwhile, the Falange is an extremist group - which also exists in Catalunya, by the way, and most importantly, is NOT in power anywhere.
      The extremists in Catalunya are and have been in power. Which allows them to display better manners, generally,...but their intentions are just as foul.

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    7. If Catalunya had a long history of fascism and the rest of Spain was historically democratic, then the position might have merit, but this is not the case. Catalonia has suffered grave injustices at the hands of right wing extremism.

      Exhibit A:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Barcelona_bombing.jpg

      Exhibit B:
      http://www.albavolunteer.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/barcelona_bombing.jpg

      Exhibit C:
      http://books.google.ca/books?id=Hq9WBMS_IUIC&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=aznar+falangist&source=bl&ots=Y3NbaBuKsp&sig=mJEpXnCI6g3TXCj4_vpkFFd0LmI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XfaZUKaSH4rriwK__4DgAQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBTgK


      The fact of the matter is that Spain does not have a long history of democracy. The opinions expressed by politicians and the military over the last few months would be unacceptable in any other democratic country:

      "Spain is a totally indissoluble nation. In case of threat of fracture or separatism, according to article number 8 of the Spanish Constitution, we have to guarantee the integrity of the territory. Therefore, it is our opinion that we have to declare a state of war, exception, or siege.” - Colonel Leopoldo Muñoz Sánchez.

      “The Spanish senate meets, has a vote, then takes over the autonomous region. We disband their parliament, the Catalan government goes back home, and the Spanish government delegation in Catalonia takes over Catalonia. The brigadier general is to be in charge of the Catalan police.”- European Parliament vice-president Alejo Vidal Quadras

      "Our interest is to Spanish-cize Catalan students so that they feel proud of being Spanish." -Spanish minister of Education José Ignacio Wert

      “Someone should speak out clearly. There used to be a very brave Catalan, President Lluís Companys, who dared to proclaim the Republic, and he ended as the Constitution at the time reflected (i.e. executed). Should Artur Mas dare to do something contrary to the Spanish Constitution, he would have to face the consequences." -General Manuel Fernández-Monzón de Altolaguirre, former spokesman for the Ministry of Defense

      (Catalonia will only be independent) “over my dead body and that of many other soldiers,”-Colonel Francisco Alamán

      http://emma-col-cat.blogspot.ca/2012/08/the-world-should-be-paying-attention-to.html

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    8. Thanks for sharing, Nick. Some of this is what I have criticised, and let me add that I also criticise those who threaten with blocking Catalonia from becoming an EU-member, if it should become independent. This last point can only be used as a warning of unilateral independence; both sides should be willing to negotiate a settlement.

      Now, there are some details re the quotes that I allow myself to correct. First of all, the military personnel you quote are all retired. The defence minister Morenés, one association of military personnel and a former Chief of Staff of the armed forces have opposed their words. Morenés has explicitly referred to Vidal Quadras ("out of time, out of place and out of tone"), yet it has to be pointed out that Vidal Quadras did not speak about the army, but about the Guardia Civil in its function of a police force.

      Wert's statement is indeed unfortunate, but it came within the debate about Spanish as language of education and ends with "so that the children feel proud of being both Catalan and Spanish".

      Criticism where it is due. It is also due against newspapers such as El Mundo, ABC and La Razón, where their editorial line (and biased reporting) is aggressive and repressive.

      However much such attitudes are reminding Catalans of a dictatorial past, and have to be understood in this context as a fear campaign, this does not excuse the excesses of Catalan nationalism, such as the words of Toni Albà (above) or Albert Ubach (below). Or of those of Heribert Barrera, also mentioned in this thread.

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    9. Nick, Do you realize that you are speaking about the history of Catalunya and of Spain as if they were two different entities? It's not that one was fascist( guess which?) and the other...democratic?... not only did part of Catalunya suffer grave injustices (and I stress part of, as Catalunya had its Francoists just the same as the other regions of Spain) but the whole of Spain was divided !
      It is truly scary to see the level of distortion brought about by the demonizing of "Spain". The history of Spain and the history of Catalunya are one and the same. Franco was acclaimed by multitudes in the streets of Barcelona. At the beginning of the 20th century there were more bull rings (3) in Barcelona than in any other Spanish city. Etcetera.
      As for the rest, if the statements of some retired army generals and Aleix Vidal quadras, is the sum total of the Spanish perfidy (after what has been going on here , for decades, and the things that have come out of the mouths of the Catalan GOVERNMENT!!) I am amazed - and disappointed.
      Candide, I'm sure I don't have to remind you that La Razon etc. are conservative newspapers, just as exist in all parts of the world. But that, above all, they are PRIVATE - unlike ALL the Catalan press which is controlled through subsidies by the Cat. Gov) and therefore not controlled by Rajoy and therefore cannot possibly be "repressive".
      They have a conservative point of view, y punto. Just as "El Pais" has a socialist point of view. I would have thought that the difference between public monies (i.e.belonging to ALL of us) controlling the press and privately run press would have been of some interest to you.

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    10. Point taken, AZ. "Repressive" is not the right word here. Those are privately owned media, and yes, there's freedom of press here. They aren't using this freedom in a very responsible way, though. Much like their counterparts in Catalonia. If I were to name one newspaper that positively stands out it would be El País.

      I also agree, very much, that dictatorship meant, as it usually means, the oppression of all freedoms. It is unacceptable that many in Catalonia see themselves as being able to claim somewhat of an exclusive on having been oppressed, and that oppression was something exerted on Catalonia by the rest of Spain.

      This is a great historical fallacy.

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    11. "The history of Spain and the history of Catalunya are one and the same. "

      Some examples from this shared history:

      The Reapers War: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Revolt
      The War of Succession: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spanish_Succession
      The Civil War: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia#Fall_of_Catalonia

      Except for Catalonia's different language, culture, economic interests, system of laws, ethnography, and political system, Spain and Catalonia are indistinguishable. Perhaps the only difference is that Catalans have no sense of humour; everyone else in Spain apparently finds this clip from a popular TV show side-splittingly funny:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXnJdRvcmKs&sns=em

      Being Catalan, obviously, I don't, but we Catalans are a severe lot. Spain and Catalonia have had such a long and varied history of working together, and recent commercial ventures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:262212888_805b4a1711_o.jpg) and other business contracts only proves this, so it would be a shame to spoil this wonderful relationship (http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2007-10-05-simon1-en.html)over such trivial matters as taxation, language, culture, system of laws, freedom from oppression, and so forth.

      Clearly Catalonia has never been singled out for special treatment and all areas of Spain have been equally oppressed. There is nothing about Catalonia which sets them apart. It is a historical fallacy that Catalonia has been any more oppressed than any other part of Spain. Catalans should be proud of how equally oppressed they have been.

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    12. It's a can of worms, dear. The PP has certainly done some very evil deeds in the recent past. Please note it does not represent Spain.

      Please note I was talking about Franco. Please note that in the War of Succession it was the Austrian/English side -favoured by Catalan extremists then (the Vigatans) and nowadays again by Catalan legend (or historiography)- who first shelled Barcelona.

      You're mixing quite some things here. You're mixing in words of a despicable character of a TV series, which everybody else understands as what they are except some fanatics.

      But what you do above all is to draw our attention away from the issue. Alas, the issue is a very simple one: even if all your grievances were true, you still cannot expel anybody if Catalonia should become independent.

      Really simple, and very forceful. The very foundations of the EU. They may be against you, they may be really the bad guys, but they still got rights. Nobody can be expelled.

      Laws are what rule Europe. And some basic principles are dear to us.

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    13. Excuse me Nick. Reality check. Catalunya has never been an independent state.
      There are other regions of Spain with their own culture, languages, traditions etc. Catalunya is not so very different there, though that may sound like heresy.
      The other areas of Spain "equally oppressed" that you mention, is again missing the point (willfully?). "Areas" of Spain were not oppressed by Franco. People who had a different ideology were. i.e. it was not a regional fight but an ideological one. Part of Catalunya was pro Franco - just as in the other regions. If you are looking for something to be proud of, as it seems you might be from your last (sarcastic but telling post), Catalunya has a lot to be proud of, but you can be very sure that it's not the self victimizing over the Civil war or what looks to be a campaign of Revenge based on the original fallacy.
      I imagine that future generations of Catalans, looking back over our times , will be profoundly ashamed of all this.
      I leave you with a quote from today's La Voz de Barcelona.
      " La gente olvida de que en Catalunya gobierna la derecha ; que hay una dictadura blanca muy peligrosa, que no fusila, que no mata, pero que dejara un lastre muy fuerte...el victimismo de (Jordi) Pujol no se corresponde con la realidad." Josep Tarradellas. 1985.

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    14. Candide, the "evil deeds" of the PP...what might they be?
      Also, in fact, the PP does represent Spain while they are in Government. They represent more than half of the Spaniards directly, and they represent the whole of Spain in their responsibility as Government.
      I think the right/left thing might be getting in the way of clarity here. Let me first explain where I come from. I've been a lefty most of my life. I became disenchanted with the left when I saw that they were often so determined to "do good" that they were prepared to ride roughshod over the very people they wanted to do good to...and anyone else who got in the way. And often, let's face it, not terribly intelligent. However, I did not suddenly become a righty either, but now see that the healthy stable management of society NEEDS both the right and left (and neither in their radical forms) Some things are run better by the right and some by the left. Frankly, ideologies aside (if that were possible) I've come to think that the crucial factor is the quality of the human beings involved. Not only their good will but their intelligence and capability...and respect for rules, will keep democracy on its toes. Which is where it needs to be . Government is not the same as a family, or the running of the local sports club...but a little of both, in balance.
      I highly recommend something I found the other day on TED Talks. Jonathan Haidt talking about the "Moral Roots of Liberals and Conservatives". Apparently he has also written a book recently called "The Righteous Mind". Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion."
      This is why your seeming determination to apportion blame on the Central government, true or not, appears to me to be based on an ideological bias. Likewise your decrying of conservative newspapers (which, aside from their ideology, have very often been the ones to bring the REAL news out into the open so that we've become aware of what's going on in Catalunya - otherwise impossible if you're confined to the Catalan press. It's telling that you have to read press whose ideology you don't share but who do provide actual facts. "El Pais" was, I thought, one of the best papers in the world. Until I saw them going the same way as the Socialists in general. The way of the wind. While they go to great lengths to appear to be even handed they are in fact far from it, and are just as willing to sacrifice the truth to support an ideology.
      This is what is not acceptable, in my opinion.

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    15. I am confused when you say that the PP "does not represent Spain", but I will let you sort that out since we are talking about Catalonia, and not Spain, so possibly you mean that the PP doesn't represent Catalonia, which is technically true, but perhaps you are referring to that inconsequential itsy-bitsy-tiny minority of soccer fans and extremists who are eager to demonstrate that "Catalonia is not Spain". You are right, nobody represents them.

      "Please note that in the War of Succession it was the Austrian/English side -favoured by Catalan extremists then (the Vigatans) and nowadays again by Catalan legend (or historiography)- who first shelled Barcelona."

      That's right, they should have simply told the Spanish Garrison loyal to Philip V which militarily held Barcelona to leave peacefully. The Catalans had always been loyal to Spain (except those "extremists" who helped the British capture Gibraltar the year before).

      You are absolutely, unequivocally right as always. There is no way, no how that anyone can ever be expelled under any circumstances whatsoever from an EU state. "Laws are what rule Europe. And some basic principles are dear to us." Such poetry, such high ideals. "They may be against you, they may be really the bad guys, but they still got rights. Nobody can be expelled." My heart sings at the nobility of these aspirations.
      (http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/05/29/217206.html)

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    16. Re you Link: This is ridiculous! Sure you can be PNG'd as a foreigner, especially as a diplomat. To everybody else but you it has been clear I was talking about nationals, not foreigners.

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    17. You are, as always right; my bad. Europe never expels it's nationals (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11020429). Never, ever, ever, ever...

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    18. You really want to debate this? Enjoy:

      "The Roma are EU citizens, mostly from Romania or Bulgaria, but French law requires them to have a work permit and prove they have the means to support themselves if they intend to stay for more than three months."

      And still, it was a scandal. Now go and expel your own nationals. See what happens.

      Is your ideology really making that blind? Will you go on and on with specious arguments about something that is totally clear? I don't doubt it, I hold it is a distinguishing trait of nationalism not to see reality. Quite funny. And very sad.

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    19. Am I missing something, or is this guy Nick actually advocating deportation of people on ideological grounds?

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    20. Sei sicuro qu'adesso non ti parlerò, logicamente, dello simile ch'è il caso GG coi casi dei dissidenti che vuoi deportare dalla Catalonia? Vai farti la tomba!

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    21. Good heavens no, God-forbid that Catalonia should ever treat Spain like it is being treated. That would be extremist! Besides, Spain would never threaten a people it did not agree with with expulsion. That would be "illegal and lethal." (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9556803/Spain-risks-break-up-as-Mariano-Rajoy-stirs-Catalan-fury.html)

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    22. Oh. So you hate Spain because of its allegedly undemocratic and totalitarian acts, but you want Catalonia to do exactly the same things or worse. So much for consistency. Or logic.

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  11. Here goes another one: "We have to expel immigrants."

    http://somnoticia.cat/2011/11/24/cal-expulsar-immigrants/

    Anybody knows who that guy is? I think the "media" is close to Reagrupament party.

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    1. Oh, "Catalunya Acció Foreign Office"

      http://catacciouk.blogspot.com.es/search?q=albert+ubach

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  12. Another great text by Mr Ubach. More immigrant bashing.

    http://proucomunisme.blogspot.com.es/2010/08/jo-tambe-vull-ser-manter.html

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  13. A phrase of another actor, and also prominent separatist activist, from two years ago: "When the tables are turned, those who are not separatists will be traitors."

    http://www.naciodigital.cat/noticia/18074/quan/es/giri/truita/qui/no/sigui/independentista/sera/traidor

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  14. NOOOOOOoooooooooOOOO!!!!
    I would never advocate that Catalunya threaten Spain with expulsion from the EU. I would have left long ago if they did that. But I happen to agree with Mr Albà: Love it or leave it, just stop being a whiny pissant about how dreadful Catalans are.

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    1. If I had a hammer.... Laws, rules and regulations just don't get into your head.

      The rest of the civilised world lives by them, your survival depends on them each day, but still.... No way you'd ever concede to reality.

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    2. Oh, and btw, you would have left what?

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  15. Alba said nothing about expulsion. Spain, on the other hand, has officially threatened an independent Catalonia with expulsion from the EU by way of veto. Q.E.D.

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    1. Damn, you're right! He wants to "give them the key" to pack and leave not in order to expel them, but to invite them to go. Yeah, that's like Saddam who didn't have hostages at the start of Gulf War I, but "guests".

      And I beg you just one more time to note the difference between having to leave one's very home and being or not a member state of the EU.

      And from now on I will preferably think that you're an agent of the Spanish government trying to shed a very bad light on Catalans whose position you by appearance defend, and I will ignore you.

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  16. Alba is speaking figuratively, obviously. The reference is the same as "show them the door." Only a paranoid fanatic would think otherwise. Idiot.

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    1. You have no right to show anybody the door, you fascist!

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    2. Godwin's Law! I win I win I win! Yippeee! GOOOOoooooooOOOLLL!!!

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    3. Seriously, how old are you?

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    4. Apparently older than you: http://cataloniawatch.blogspot.ca/2012/10/corbatarojaparamas.html

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  17. You lose Anonymous. Godwin's Law applies to inappropriate references to Nazism. Didn't happen here. And even if Candide had called you a Nazi, "The law...would not apply to discussions...of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies, if that was the explicit topic of conversation, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate...".
    So I guess you're going to have to live with "fascist" - and not even a capital letter fascist...(if you ever get to carry out what your big mouth blabs about, THEN you might earn the term "nazi". Til then you'd better do your homework.)

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  18. Candide, Silence on the "evil deeds" of the PP...so I guess that confirms that I haven't missed anything, and that, held up to the light , the appeasing argument of shared blame is just an appeasing argument, not based on the truth.

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  19. Em sembla que vostè s'ha perdut enmig d'una frase feta o refrany.
    Donar la clau i el duro es una dita calatana que es refereix a donar la llibertat a l'adolescent per entrar i sortir de la casa paterna, sense horaris. Vostè (per ignorància o mala fe) retorça la dita vinculant les paraules de Toni Albà a la expulsió dels jueus i moriscos.

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    1. Gràcies, em semblava que devia haver-hi una dita. Alas, Albà uses the saying to tell others to pack their things and leave. There's no option to return. It's Albà who abuses of the saying; his insistence, via Twitter, that he "said no such thing" is playing on the saying leaving open the possibility of the return of the adolescent to his parents' home. (Patronising tone detected, btw.)

      If they tell you to leave a country, that's a different pair of shoes than leaving your parents' home.

      Thanks for making us aware that Albà is even more wicked than I thought, using a saying hoping he cannot be held accountable for the true sense of his words.

      Uhm.... We're no idiots. Count on that.

      You said what you said, Toni.

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  20. Reagrading Alba, I've just found yesterday's Joan Olle article on elperiodico superb

    http://www.elperiodico.cat/ca/noticias/opinion/espanolistas-encima-tontos-2272830

    Gerard Duval

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    1. Nice. I missed that one. Thanks, Mr Duval. And welcome.

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